Forum - View topicTrans and Gender Non-Conforming Anime Characters.
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15501 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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@ Past
I plan to have this thread continue with updating on characters that are trans or gender nonconforming, that it would be open for any other discussion one might be interested in. Indeed, few examples probably provide an accurate example what it might be to be trans, I would probably say more examples are open just for fetishist reasons, and I can often still enjoy some characters that might fit that way. Talking about recent examples, fairly early this season current airing anime might have had a couple examples of trans men, so spoilers maybe if you are not up to the current releases. One is Makoto Tsukishiro from Joran: The Princess of Snow and Blood, who although has not been kind of pointed towards certainly being transgender, he has generally been presented as a man and got visibly upset when someone made a show of revealing his breasts, I don't otherwise have a whole lot to say about the character. And another has been James Bonde from the second season of Moriarty the Patriot, who started out in the show as the Sherlock Holmes character Irene Adler (at the risk of deadnaming a character). I liked to have noted that even when generally presenting as a woman, he was able to pull off a good man, which I give myself the theory that maybe he has had some element of genderfluid or something, although he is currently identifying as a man. The show was actually quite insistent on this. In terms of a Sherlock Holmes story, it creates a nice contrast to Case File nº221: Kabukicho, which I am just going to say was not always the best in terms of some elements of transgender representation. I think it actually kind of made me angry at the time. Also kind of curious over some recent episodes of Iruma-kun, which have had the main character kind of forced into female clothing and has been mistaken as interested in crossdressing (or something). Which reminds me of another example of a similar shounen character of the titular character of Hayate the Combat Butler, which seems even shounen main characters for some reasons have to kind of be put into such and such outfits. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
 Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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We all know in reality it would be very embarrassing and insulting to be forced or even just encouraged to crossdress regardless of how much (or how little) you resemble the opposite sex.
But in anime this is kind of typical and expected behavior between characters. I think the popularity of this trope comes from the way their reactions to suddenly finding themselves crossdressed, is supposed to make the effect even more funny/cute/sexy. Whether you as the viewer appreciate it is up to you. However, again, this is all beside the point of achieving realism and an accurate sense of introspection on the transgender or gender non-conforming experience. Not that anime really ever does that with any other pressing political or cultural subject. So I think that's why those more lighthearted and somewhat fetishist instances of alternate gender expression are so prevalent instead. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18223 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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DuskyPredator, if you've never seen it, you should look up Simoun. It's one of the most involved and unusual looks at gender identity that I've ever seen.
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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DuskyPredator (or anyone else), what are your thoughts on where we should place otokonoko on the gender spectrum? Is it a definitive yes or no that ones like Astolfo from Fate/Grand Order and Felix Argyle from Zero who are usually seen in women's clothing can be considered transwomen? My opinion is that anime presents us with a unique setting that cannot be replicated in the real world. Being an otokonoko without necessarily implying any type of transgender or gender non-conforming identity is something that uniquely exists within anime worlds. This is because reality forces upon us gender roles, societal expectations and various other factors that don't have to exist in a fantasy world. Or should we read more into their crossdressing than is apparent in the plot and character development? It probably has a lot to do with individual interpretation and things not specifically pointed out in the story are left to your imagination whether they are true or canon.
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15501 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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My understanding is a case by case basis. I am no expert, but I am familiar with a manual called Love Love Me for Who I Am, which is generally set around an otokonoko restaurant, early on it kind of tackled the question on the fact it is varied for the different staff. Some are cis male and thus fit in the gender nonconforming camp, that would be crossdressers. Some of the characters are trans women, where it kind of changes things one of them had found comfort with the label of otokonoko but learns that she would be allowed to identify as a woman. And one of the main characters is non-binary, and so unhappy with being made to identify themselves as male or female.
I don't really have much actual experience with Fate, but from what I have heard there is a semi consensus that Astolfo would be non-binary, since when questioned over their gender they are rather vague in some sources by saying things like "cute" while it being obvious to be AMAB with a feminine presentation. That would fit under trans. Felix/Ferris of Re:Zero seems to be a more controversial character, since at least things like the first season with them presenting feminine but open over being a boy, would say gender nonconforming. But other things I have seen that quote Ferris as looking in the mirror and either wishing or saying something is like a spell that makes them a woman, would say a trans woman who is dealing with a culture that might not affirm her, semi closeted. I think that I have also seen that Felix could be something like a dead name. That sort of thing I think makes the question of where any particular otokonoko might fit. Since they might be just gender nonconforming, or are just being upfront with what they are in a culture that might not recognise a trans person. Part of the reason I wanted this topic was to have a place to bring characters to look where they might fit on individual basis. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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After reading your post Dusky, it occurred to me it never really should be a question of whether an otokonoko is trans or not, it's only whether a character is. Otokonoko is a label that exists almost entirely outside the perspective of the characters and something only placed on them by creators or viewers. And many viewers/readers don't even acknowledge the concept of otokonoko.
You said one of the characters in Love Me for Who I Am found comfort with the label but I think in their situation, because they work at an "otokonoko cafe," their crossdressing has a purpose behind it. Being trans or gender non-conforming is not a prerequisite of working at that cafe and yes there is quite a divergence between the characters in this manga as to why they work there and wear girly outfits. Thanks for your insight. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15501 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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My understanding is that otokonoko is a bit of a fetish thing, it is a trope, although that does not have to mean each such character is a sex thing. And I also understand it as in Japanese culture as per manga and anime, otokonoko is kind of more well known than the idea of being transgender, and or more accepted.
The trans girl in Love Me for Who I Am, I think that it was kind of hinted that going by the label of otokonoko was a way she could be accepted for wearing the type of clothes she wanted. When she heard someone refuse to say that they were a boy despite their appearances as to feed into the gimmick of the workplace, she thought that it was selfish, but it was because she did not understand that saying that she is a girl was an option, and it was not greedy to do so. Which is kind of what I think some characters in shows that fit under otokonoko, they might not want to have it look like they tricked someone, but it is not greedy to be seen as the gender you want to be identified as. For why otokonoko tropes can be popular, it is worth some theories. One I have is that it can be an outlet of someone who is closeted about being bisexual, being entrenched in some part of homophobia, where they can say a character is simultaneously male but also female as some sort of deniability. But also why some of the kind get so defensive others saying that an otokonoko character is something other than what they might define it, and get into half joking discussions over discussing whether it is gay or not. That especially in English you get people who want to convince others they have been tricked as part of deniability. At least that is some personal reflection, such as why I was so attached to a character like Hasture from Haiyore Nyaruko-san, or Gasper Vladi from Highschool DxD, where I was super in denial over being bi. An outlet for some cute boys I could let myself be attracted to by saying that they practically look like girls, and they were tricking me with the character designs, and also my other reason to like androgyny. For the record of the two above characters, although it has been a while since I have seen both series. I think Hastur might be gender nonconforming, since he doesn't seem fazed being seen as a boy, although maybe I could have read something into his also equal feminine aspects. And Gasper more went out of the way of wearing feminine despite social anxiety, leave me wonder if Gasper might have been the kind that might identify as trans if shown it as an option. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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I think in the anime community there's disinterest in anime/manga dealing with trans stuff or discomfort in even thinking about alternate gender expression. The world will always have its transphobes and uber fundamentalist Bible-thumpers, but even within the LGBTQ community, trans issues are not always well understood or respected.
This fact I can accept and understand or its just that people want to enjoy anime/manga without being cluttered with political and social justice messages. It's okay as long as everyones happy with the "safe spaces" concept from a ideological standpoint. Something I am uncomfortable with however is the insistence that gender non-conforming characters are trying to trick others. Or that's the intent as a plot device. For some, complaining about being tricked as a reason to avoid transpeople is a form of transphobia. But what about transpeople themselves when reviewing a show that features the many different iterations of alternate gender expression through its characters? I hear complaints how there's not enough sensitivity or how the viewer is supposed to laugh when the MC is tricked by the pretty crossdressed guy. I understand how this can be offensive but rather than seeing it as tricking perhaps its a way that the author/creator expresses, in a fantasy setting, the natural "passing" ability of some characters. Like thinking, "if only I could be a transwoman in anime, transitioning wouldn't be so challenging." Well for me perhaps its just being tricked is a completely foreign concept to me, as I am comfortable with any typical sexual interaction real/imagined, gay/straight or as either sex/any combination thereof. Sorry, in advance, if this is too simplistic or disrespectful to anyone. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15501 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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With the narratives you hit weird opinions of the audiences, where either they are trying to trick someone, or they are upfront and thus not actually trans or something. Kind of seems like there needs to be very specific language for a character to come across positively by saying they are one thing on the outside and something else on the inside. I am not sure how helpful of a language it always is, especially how there can be various kinds of relationships people have with their gender. My personal favourite I think has stayed at Yuu from Stars Align, where they admitted to not really having much of a clue but knowing that something was different. This might be personal bias, in regards to gender that might not strictly fit on the binary. I also generally have felt liberated since I stopped caring what sex or gender a character might be rather than I think they might be attractive. Granted, a pet peeve I have had in not understanding the actions of other viewers is when they complain about a female character cutting her hair because said viewer thinks it makes them look like a boy or something, and perhaps similar thoughts were if a male character looked more feminine or something. I think that I cannot actually understand it, because I can have an opposite reaction. Although I maybe do worry if my thoughts are some element of fetishizing things. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15501 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Sorry if it has taken a little while to respond to this Key. I am curious if you can recommend that it holds up or has an interesting point of view, I will just need to put aside some time to check it out, since it has been so busy this season. But I also wanted to take some time to bring up some trans and gender non-conforming (etc) anime characters regarding a specific genre, magical girls. There is a little trend of the likes of a boy turning into a magical girl, but I might have some kind of different. Firstly I will doing a bit of a question mark, of Haruka Tenou from Sailor Moon, aka Sailor Uranus. Now, Uranus has a specific trait as being a part of being one half of the famous lesbian pairing with Neptune, and I am a little worried about this might tread on some parts of an important lesbian character (not a cousin), but Haruka also has a trait of occasionally presenting as more of a man. I am also by no means an expert on this Sailor Moon, but my suspicions are that Haruka might be genderfluid, they can present both ways, and I think even made Usagi swoon of which I am not familiar of other times she might have thought so of a girl. I have been trying to get an idea of what the consensus is, but it seems a bit messy, such as what the idea is of things at the time. I think that I have also heard some element that there might be other characters from Sailor Moon that can have their gender change. I think we already had it mentioned a couple characters who might be male and in a magical girl transformation turn into a girl via the signiature method, like Soji Mitsuka of Gonna be the Twin-Tail!! turning into Tail-Red, and Natsuru Senō from Kämpfer. I can think of a couple others that are kind on the trashy side. Another anime is Magical Girl Raising Project that has the male Souta Kishibe turning into the female La Puclle. As far as I a can recall, I don't remember if there was some element of changing into a girl that might say something about is human counterpart, like secretly trans or something, or how much of him mentally changes when transformed. I regardless thought they were a really interesting character at the time. Magical Girl Site is an even trashier dark magical girl series, and has Kiyoharu Suirenji, who I think is a far more confirmed trans girl. It has been a while. It has been a while since I saw the show, but I do remember it for a number of problems, but still maybe positive in regards to transgender, since her being accepted as one of the magical girls in the first place was affirming. For a really weird example with regards to magical girls, there is Magical Girl Ore, which has the weird trait of having the girls that transform into a magical girl form turn into men along with gaining the magical girl clothing. Much to the annoyance of girls Saki Uno and Sakuyo Mikage, although it is weird on this subject as neither of them really identify as male, rather than being forced into it. Kind of bodies turn male while the clothing that you might say presentation is still of women, making them look like crossdressing men. Which reminded me of another example from Is This a Zombie?, where on occasions where main character Ayumu Aikawa needs power by which is become a magical girl Ayumu is forced against his will to wear the magical girl outfit to increase his stats. Ayumu gets mistaken as a crossdresser, where the monsters get freaked out by him, which honestly in retrospect is a bit kind of not great as the whole joke is a boy in girl clothes. Probably something a bit transphobic. But I do continue to think that some of these strange things regardless of good or bad are worth a look at, and there has been thoughts of what if magical girl being AMAB. Even if there is just a joke of a dude dressed in a magical girl outfit. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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What I know of Simoun is that it takes place in a world where every human is born female. Upon reaching a certain age, people can choose to remain women or go through a process that changes them into men. The story centers around pilots involved in some sort of war between nations. The aircraft are unique bug-looking things with elaborate spinning parts and even more unusual weapons.
I think I was uncomfortable with the gender aspect in that the choice by which people chose their ultimate gender was heavily influenced by romantic or career interests (I think males are not able to fly the special battle aircraft). That could set up for some interesting drama but I guess I was looking for a better "what if" scenario where being AFAB or AMAB was irrelevant because you could choose either way. If it develops more into that later on let me know Key, but it seemed like the gender identity aspect took a very back-row seat to the political intrigue and romantic drama. |
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Alestal
 Posts: 605 Location: Dallas, Texas |
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I can't say that I've ever given this too much thought before, but now that I think about it I can say that anime definitely exposed me to transgender characters ever since I was a child!
Hana from Tokyo Godfathers is an interesting character because she worked as a female drag artist, but she also identifies as a woman. This has been commonplace in drag culture for years, but until recently it was still considered "taboo" by many hardcore drag fans who would argue that transgender people are not truly doing drag. Isabella from Paradise Kiss is a true transgender character and her story is told in a very relatable way. She grew up as a wealthy male child, but was always drawn towards presenting herself as the woman that she felt she was. She was scared that the George (one of the main characters) would judge her for her non-conformist ways... spoiler[ and they actually became best friends when she discovered that he supported her right to express her true self.] Nuriko from Fushigi Yuugi is an interesting character because he/she seems to be a very gender fluid person. The specifics of his/her tastes are never really fully explained, but it is made clear that part of the reason is to pay homage to their late sister. The intent of presenting themselves as a woman is to let her memory "live on" through him. This part of the truth eventually comes to light, but Nuriko still remains a very "fluid" character and the entire psychology behind their beliefs is never fully explained (although... I have not read the manga). |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15501 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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@ Alestal
I haven't seen those ones either, although I doubt that I will be watching many shows I have not seen any time soon, because I am full up this season, such as yesterday I had to still to catch up on shows from two days before. Also, I am a kind of a snob with quality of newer shows most of the time. I have had a feeling of being uncomfortable with drag myself, something I kind of thought might be some root of (internalised) transphobia, but so far working through it I found that I was still uncomfortable. I think that it was some element of at least what I am familiar with it is meant to be a performance of kind of being female, but still read as male as if to discount the idea that an AMAB person could do so. Or used in things like media where it used in some media as a means to trick people into being a gender that they are not, both giving me sort of conflicting thoughts. I am aware that the characters in that movie are homeless people, and so I do otherwise think of interest of a trans woman that might not have the resources to successfully present as female, so she is in an interesting place to do drag, where her attempt can be used for something. I do oddly see the concept of Western drag as different from the Japanese Otokonoko, for some reason. And why the likes of the Love Me For Who I Am manga that has an otokonko cafe with cis men, trans women and AMAB enby were not something I really had to think around. with a recent anime, I think of the likes of comparing Pretty Boy Detective Club, where you have pretty boys, with one in particular that has cross-dressed as a pretty girl a few times, which I think positively on. But then you had I think Ouran HIghschool Hose Club, that had the boys I think once unsuccessfully dress as girls with heavy makeup, which seems in line with drag. Kind of the opposite where Haruhi successfully presents as a boy, and I find some funny that when she might then dress as a girl as she would have before, it maybe could be seen by some as a really good crossdressing. I would love more good genderfluid, that especially don't have some weird Freudian excuse, along the lines of a Norman Bates that holds onto the personality of his dead mother. Like they don't need an excuse to be themselves, which can appear fluid. I do wish the main character from Reincarnated as a slime wilfully presented fluidly in being physically agender and able be fluid with sex, rather than forced, that his wishes would be respected. |
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Alestal
Posts: 605 Location: Dallas, Texas |
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@DuskyPredator
That's a very humble and relatable opinion on queer culture. It's really about exposure and education. I've been to many drag shows and I have A LOT of learn about the transgender community... They are two very different subjects that are often grouped together. We could start an entirely new conversation on those nuances, but then we'd veer away from the anime topic this thread is grounded on. "We're all born naked and the rest is drag". I wouldn't recommend watching Fushigi Yuugi unless you are under the age of 16 (although it was certainly a creative gem from the past), but if you get the time then you should definitely check out the other two works that I mentioned. They are unique and well done. I've also seen A LOT of anime and I'm VERY picky with what I watch nowadays. 
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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I also wanted to say that Fushigi Yuugi is not just for teens. It's one of my all-time favorites, maybe it's a bit of a corny relic by today's standards but I wouldn't put it past anyone for enjoying it nonetheless regardless of age. Compared to other drama shows, none of them yanked on my heartstrings episode after episode quite as strongly as FY. And a major character that helped intensify that storytelling so well was Nuriko. Even before transgender was a thing in my mind, I always rooted for Nuriko to be the woman she was meant to be and found it really uplifting how readily most of the other main characters not just accepted but supported her. This was at a time when the average viewer would probably not be as supportive if they were in, say Tamahome's or Miaka's shoes. So in that sense, I think the anime was a bit ahead of it's time. |
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