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Did heavily edited early dubs help the industry?


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mgree0032



Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 246
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 3:28 pm Reply with quote
Back in the 80s-2000s, hack (Macekre-styled) dubs were running rampant throughout the anime boom in America, these dubs would include rewritten plots, hammy voice acting, replacement music, censorship, and bowdlerization of the source material. Fans hate this practice back then because it was treated as a marketing strategy rather than getting the draw of the series. Most of the worst cases of this came from 4kids entertainment. So did heavily edited dubs really make anime more enjoyable back in the 80s-2000s?

Last edited by mgree0032 on Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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InfiniteJest



Joined: 22 Apr 2023
Posts: 136
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:03 am Reply with quote
Nah I think bad dubs and the hack jobs hurt and stereotyped the genre as something super niche or for kids.

I remember hearing Billy Bob Thornton’s horrible voice in Princess Mononoke in the theater and almost never watching another Ghibli movie.

As a kid I watched G-Force and it was horrid but I was a kid so had bo discernment. Any adult watching would just dismiss it as trash. And it was.

That probably slowed the popular spread and adoption of anime as a mainstream entertainment in the west. But times are changing and higher quality helps more audiences accept it.

So I’ll say the crappy older dubs hurt bit good ones in the last 10 years are helping.
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AsleepBySunset



Joined: 07 Sep 2022
Posts: 209
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:21 am Reply with quote
Yes, I absolutely think anime like pokemon's success depended on and still depends on being dubbed and having those dubs aimed at the target demographic; children. Changes such as original english language opening and ending themes are important to pokemon's success in the west. As well as changing the japanese names to english names, changing the pokemon names to their english names and so on. If you do things like keep japanese honorifics, japanese character names, japanese pokemon names and so on you're dub is squarely aimed at the otaku demographic which is teen and up. And frankly the people who want that sort of thing will watch pokemon subbed anyway.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4588
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:13 pm Reply with quote
InfiniteJest wrote:
Nah I think bad dubs and the hack jobs hurt and stereotyped the genre as something super niche or for kids.

I remember hearing Billy Bob Thornton’s horrible voice in Princess Mononoke in the theater and almost never watching another Ghibli movie.

As a kid I watched G-Force and it was horrid but I was a kid so had bo discernment. Any adult watching would just dismiss it as trash. And it was.

That probably slowed the popular spread and adoption of anime as a mainstream entertainment in the west. But times are changing and higher quality helps more audiences accept it.

So I’ll say the crappy older dubs hurt bit good ones in the last 10 years are helping.

I think that's a rather short-sighted take on things. It's easy to look back now and mock the edits and adaptation choices in shows like Speed Racer or Star Blazers or Robotech or Sailor Moon or DBZ, but the fact is that most of those shows never would have been broadcast on US television if they weren't significantly edited. And those shows airing on TV are what opened the doors for a lot of people to discover anime and become fans, which leads in a direct line to where we are today, when almost every new series in a given season is available uncut legally. I genuinely believe that if you lost those edited TV broadcasts in the 90s, then anime would have stayed a niche hobby consigned to importing and tape-trading for far longer than it did. Now did some adapters go overboard in editing series, and did these chopped-up shows persist for longer than they strictly needed to? Of course. But for my money, those earlier examples did far more good than harm.

One or two other thoughts. I think anime dubs have been pretty high-quality for longer than 10 years; in fact, several of the dubs commonly cited in all-time greatest lists came out in the early 2000s. And I've seen Princess Mononoke dubbed more than once, but I couldn't even tell you which character Billy Bob Thornton dubbed, much less feel like any one role ruined the entire dub.


Last edited by Top Gun on Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
Posts: 4860
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:23 pm Reply with quote
InfiniteJest wrote:
Nah I think bad dubs and the hack jobs hurt and stereotyped the genre as something super niche or for kids.

I remember hearing Billy Bob Thornton’s horrible voice in Princess Mononoke in the theater and almost never watching another Ghibli movie.

If Princess Mononoke is your go to example of a dub so bad it ruined anime's reputation in the US, you should watch more actual Americanized anime dubs, like Warriors of the Wind.
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TheFanCon



Joined: 14 Jun 2023
Posts: 48
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 11:36 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
I think that's a rather short-sighted take on things. It's easy to look back now and mock the edits and adaptation choices in shows like Speed Racer or Star Blazers or Robotech or Sailor Moon or DBZ, but the fact is that most of those shows never would have been broadcast on US television if they weren't significantly edited.

Yes, like Saint Seiya or Fist of the North Star. And you know what? They would have been all the better for it.

Especially shows like Robotech and DBZ, it would have gone a long way to avoid the terrible reign of companies like Harmony Gold over the Macross license, and all of the sheer chaos and confusion that followed Funimation's amateur treatment of a series they only got the license to via nepotism (like not only the numerous dubs and score changes, but also their garbage, worse than mediocre home video releases that can't ever get it right or present it in its proper context/state).

Quote:
I genuinely believe that if you lost those edited TV broadcasts in the 90s, then anime would have stayed a niche hobby consigned to importing and tape-trading for far longer than it did.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and sites like this one show why this current situation is far from ideal. There's always only a surface level knowledge of the medium with a massive lack of perspective on it.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:28 pm Reply with quote
TheFanCon wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and sites like this one show why this current situation is far from ideal. There's always only a surface level knowledge of the medium with a massive lack of perspective on it.

I'm sorry, but that kind of elitist gatekeeping is just childish. If you're truly a fan of something, then you should want to share your love for it with as many people as you can, so that they can experience the same sense of joy and discovery that you did. It's not about creating an elitist walled garden that only the "chosen few" can access. You say that FotNS or Saint Seiya are in a better place, but by what possible measure? The former is unarguably THE seminal battle shonen series that influenced everything after it, and yet even many dedicated anime fans in the US only know about it because of a meme. And the latter...well, most anime fans in this country probably don't even know it existed, because they had no way of being exposed to it. In what way is that a better fate than shows that remain household names decades after they first aired and helped introduce millions of fans to the medium as a whole? Would that every series could be so lucky.

I think back to how things went down with One Piece. The 4Kids dub was a universally-reviled hackjob, and even with that I've encountered multiple people who first became fans of the series because they saw it on TV that way, and then sought out more of it afterwards. Then there was a common narrative that the well had been poisoned, and the series would never have a chance in the US again...and yet here we sit, with the entire massive thing available on streaming, and Funiroll having dubbed one thousand episodes and counting of it. Even that absolute worst-case scenario managed to expose the series to open minds, and while I'll never claim that it enabled the series' later domestic success, at the very least it didn't kill it off.
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TheFanCon



Joined: 14 Jun 2023
Posts: 48
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:25 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
I'm sorry, but that kind of elitist gatekeeping is just childish. If you're truly a fan of something, then you should want to share your love for it with as many people as you can, so that they can experience the same sense of joy and discovery that you did. It's not about creating an elitist walled garden that only the "chosen few" can access.

I mean, I'd rather not have that method of sharing be done through companies that have no respect for these productions (or even their audiences, for that matter) and never deserved the licensing rights to them, any look around can show you what the results have been. Even now, the monsters some of them have created won't allow them to make progress towards better ways of doing things (look what happened with Funimation dubbing Kai and what the reaction of fans of their earlier work was, or what TPCI continues to do with their main anime long after it has gone out of style).

And it's really not about any "chosen few", because anyone interested could dive in without any useless baggage (even if it may have meant no good quality subtitles at times, as is the case for certain series, but then you did have groups that specialized in bringing over uncut anime). And some of those groups would still have been in business had it not been for the rise of certain other licensing companies (specifically through the nepotism license steal I mentioned before), which in particular only bring over what's perceived to be popular or lucrative and don't care for anything else.

I'm not even from the US or any country where anime could have been part of anyone's childhood in a cable TV context, and I still ended up finding numerous anime series I have an interest in (that were never officially exported BTW).

Most of the people who grew up with this kind of stuff back in earlier days only care for the invalid alternate versions which they were presented, with a considerable amount not even caring for what those versions originally were and how they were presented to the rest of the world, and a few doing the opposite. Even my comment about this site was mainly referring to the results of all these adaptations.

Quote:
You say that FotNS or Saint Seiya are in a better place, but by what possible measure? The former is unarguably THE seminal battle shonen series that influenced everything after it, and yet even many dedicated anime fans in the US only know about it because of a meme. And the latter...well, most anime fans in this country probably don't even know it existed, because they had no way of being exposed to it. In what way is that a better fate than shows that remain household names decades after they first aired and helped introduce millions of fans to the medium as a whole? Would that every series could be so lucky.

The bolded is the problem, why is it only the US (and by extension the Anglosphere) that for so long was worse at handling anime series than just about everywhere else in the world that got them? I think that's the real issue rather than the people against the kind of treatment these series were getting back then.

I mean that those series haven't lost anything and aren't under the thumb of companies that never deserved to have them, plus if people want an introduction then they don't have to deal with much if any baggage left over from skewed presentations of those series.

There's also many more series like that, they get fine, properly done remasters (that aren't cropped garbage like the Orange Bricks) and can be presented to those who are interested in them in the best way possible, something DBZ and a lot of other series were robbed of (see most of the Sunrise Studios catalog, most famously Gundam shows but also stuff like the Brave or Eldran series and also other Tomino works).[/b]
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
Posts: 4860
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:40 am Reply with quote
TheFanCon wrote:
Especially shows like Robotech and DBZ, it would have gone a long way to avoid the terrible reign of companies like Harmony Gold over the Macross license, and all of the sheer chaos and confusion that followed Funimation's amateur treatment of a series they only got the license to via nepotism (like not only the numerous dubs and score changes, but also their garbage, worse than mediocre home video releases that can't ever get it right or present it in its proper context/state).

You know even if those shows got picked up by other companies they still would have gotten a localized dub because anime fandom didn't exist back in the mainstream back then and shows like DB and Macross are for little kids. Funimation wasn't even the first company to dub DB as there were other companies who tried producing their own localized dubs first including Harmony Gold. If Toei truly hated Funimation's treatment of DB, they've had lots of chances to pull the license from them but they never had. And DB is dubbed uncut nowadays.

Quote:
The bolded is the problem, why is it only the US (and by extension the Anglosphere) that for so long was worse at handling anime series than just about everywhere else in the world that got them?

There have been tons of other countries that also produced their own localized anime dubs and not just the US and some other countries had worse dubs than US productions. You can look up any changes that was done to the South Korean dub of Sailor Moon and that was a far worse dub than anything DiC did.
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mgree0032



Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 246
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:44 am Reply with quote
but they have far more faithful translations than the US dubs.
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
Posts: 4860
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:48 pm Reply with quote
The South Korean dub skipped every episode of Sailor Moon Supers that had the Amazon Trio in it and digitally edited the Sailor Starlights' outfits to cover up their mid-rifs. And you don't have to quote my entire post if you're just responding to one thing that I'm saying in it
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1866
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:29 pm Reply with quote
They obviously helped the industry by giving anime more exposure in the sense that any publicity is good publicity. I'm sure more people in the 90s watched Sailor Moon edited than they would've uncut with the LGBT things in it (sadly). Uncut Sailor Moon is great for kids, but the frankly backwards mindsets of people during the prior century made them assume that the uncut version was somehow inappropriate.

Back on topic though, they helped in the sense that "If we get even one more person to watch anime who wouldn't have heard of it otherwise, we're helping the industry." Of course, uncut dubs helped far more. Pokemon is a rare case where the property was always meant for children anyway, but more people are watching One Piece now than they ever would've if it stayed in the hands of 4kids.
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3455
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:35 pm Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
There have been tons of other countries that also produced their own localized anime dubs and not just the US and some other countries had worse dubs than US productions. You can look up any changes that was done to the South Korean dub of Sailor Moon and that was a far worse dub than anything DiC did.

But US does have some egregious examples. Card Captor Sakura for TV in North America, or as they named it, Cardcaptors, was edited to hell and back by Nelvana, with emphasis on making Syaoran more prominent as the main lead. Strangely they DID produce a dub for all 70 episodes(not to be mistaken for the Animax dub)(that version didn't air in US, but I think it aired in Australia if I remember correctly...).
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Alan45
Village Elder



Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:24 pm Reply with quote
I don't think they had any significant influence at all. Over the last twenty five years or so in this forum and others, we have had people pose questions as to "What was your first anime" and "How did you get into anime". In a lot of cases the answer for the first question was one of those heavily edited shows. However the answer to the second question was that they came to anime fandom separately and didn't realized that the early show was anime until they became fans. This makes perfectly good sense as those heavily edited shows did their absolute best to hide where they were from. You might see a reference to the original Japanese title if you read the fine print in the credits, but no one but fans do that.
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TheFanCon



Joined: 14 Jun 2023
Posts: 48
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:12 am Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
You know even if those shows got picked up by other companies they still would have gotten a localized dub because anime fandom didn't exist back in the mainstream back then and shows like DB and Macross are for little kids. Funimation wasn't even the first company to dub DB as there were other companies who tried producing their own localized dubs first including Harmony Gold. If Toei truly hated Funimation's treatment of DB, they've had lots of chances to pull the license from them but they never had. And DB is dubbed uncut nowadays.

In the first place Funimation only got the license due to family connections and not any real qualifications (let's not forget this), and Toei is the same company that junked the JP broadcast audio as well as refuses to do remasters of 16mm film material. They apparently even suggested the early name changes that Harmony Gold did for the first DB show. Those aren't the kind of people I would expect to do anything about the license being in amateur hands at this point.

But here's the thing, the DB license was lucrative, so you definitely had other, more established companies like Pioneer, AnimEIGO, U.S. Renditions, or even Viz who had their eyes on the license, and the 3rd one listed was apparently on track to get it after Harmony Gold's licensing rights expired, until Gen Fukunaga's producer uncle at Toei Company stepped in and pulled some strings to get it to his nephew's start-up company after they were initially rejected.

And we've seen a glimpse of what professional companies like Pioneer could do if they had the license, aka DBZ movies 1-3 dubbed by Ocean (which Funimation learned absolutely nothing from when they made their fake uncut editions).

Quote:
There have been tons of other countries that also produced their own localized anime dubs and not just the US and some other countries had worse dubs than US productions. You can look up any changes that was done to the South Korean dub of Sailor Moon and that was a far worse dub than anything DiC did.

But how many of those are subject to the same kinds of aforementioned crippling debacles that some of these same series are in the US? I'll see what it is you're talking about, although SK has a lot of historical baggage with JP itself so it makes sense that there would be issues.

I don't think BGM changes were among them though.

Alan45 wrote:
I don't think they had any significant influence at all. Over the last twenty five years or so in this forum and others, we have had people pose questions as to "What was your first anime" and "How did you get into anime". In a lot of cases the answer for the first question was one of those heavily edited shows. However the answer to the second question was that they came to anime fandom separately and didn't realized that the early show was anime until they became fans.

This is true, the localized versions really get too much credit since not many even knew they were anime to begin with.
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